Posts by Indian Larry

26

Had a Frustrating Discussion with Mom...

by tenyearsafter in

my 80 something year old mom is a die hard jw, but to her credit, she has not shunned me.

as would be expected, she is always "praying" that i return to jah and get reinstated.

is consistent...every time my wife and i see her, she always tries to steer the conversation to "how bad the world" has become.. today, she escalated the "theocratic attack" by coming out directly and asking me what i thought of world conditions.

Indian Larry

Both of my parents are 80 as well. The were both raised in the organization. Of course they worry about me constantly. I have to agree with the comments made above. At this point in your mom's life it is probably too late. If you are successful in opening her eyes to the truth about the "truth", the pain she will go through in the form of cognitive dissonence would be tremendous. In addition she would have to either spend the rest of her life "faking it" at the hall or she could also risk losing every friend she has ever had. For me that pain has been continuing for over 10 years now, I do have conversations with my parents but I don't really try to "convert" them.

My personal goal with my elderly parents is to walk a very fine line. I want them to realize that I do have valid reasons for staying away from the organization, but I don't want to ruin the little bit of time they have left. Instead I try to get across to them that Jehovah can read hearts and he will read mine as well. I would hate for them to be on their death bed and be convinsed that they will never see their son again.

It is a fine line but so far it has been working.

47

I finally drove off my wonderful jw wife...and i am so sad..

by oompa in

jw
friends

i helped her move out this weekend so i must be a masochist too...so on top of losing every friend in my life...i have now lost my wife...and yes i asked her to leave on more than one occasion this year...we have argued for nearly five years about wt crap...nothing i could ever say would make her question anything!!!!

it was beyond frustrating...then this spring when i somehow disassociated myself and even lost my parents i knew i would never have a normal marriage no matter what...all i wanted was a normal marriage with mutual friends...that is off the table as long as she is a jw...but why could i not accept it???

why could i not shut up???

Indian Larry

Mickey Mouse, thanks so much for posting that video. That is perfect for my wife. I plan on showing it to her tomorrow. I have been married quite a long time and I have always had a wonderful relationship with my wife who is a fantastic person. It is only lately that I am starting to worry about my marrage. I think I will follow the advice in the video. I would hate it if I lost her over my distrust of 7 old men in Brooklyn. I will play it sloooooooow, and hopefully, eventually we can both be in the "real truth" and not an organization.

24

What is the most ironic statement you have seen in the Watchtower?

by Indian Larry in

there are so many good ones, but this has got to be near the top of the list: .

*** w56 2/1 p. 88 par.

45 cautious as serpents among wolves ***.

Indian Larry

There are so many good ones, but this has got to be near the top of the list:

*** w56 2/1 p. 88 par. 45 Cautious as Serpents Among Wolves ***

In Jeremiah’s day the false prophets prophesied lies in Jehovah’s name and lied against his purpose, foretelling in his name what he had not foretold. Therefore Jehovah was against them. He executed judgment against them at Jerusalem’s destruction in 607 B.C. (Jer. 23:25; 27:15) Religious liars like them today cannot escape a like judgment but will meet a like end at Armageddon.

If that is not the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is, plus throwing in the lie about 607 right in the middle of this "denoucement" really is the icing on the cake.

21

So... I got the 607 defense articles sent to me...

by i_drank_the_wine in

jw
friends

...by a family member who recalled that this is one of my major apostate beefs.

the articles themselves are disgusting pieces of mis-information and require some serious mental gymnastics to actually believe.

however, they're so damn long-winded and waste so much time on pointless stuff like the 2 pages on the jw's beliefs about the 70 year period, that i am debating on whether or not to write the loyal j-dub family member back on it or not.. it shows just how brainwashed that family member is in that they know that 607 is a problem date, yet happily forward the articles as soem sort of proof while never once reading anything on the topic with an iota of thinking.. after years of having everything i've said on these topics ignored by everyone in my family that i've tried contacting over and over again, i really feel like taking the time to pick through their trash is going to be a big waste.

Indian Larry

Greenland, the society considers the fall of Babylon in 539 to be an anchor date. Use that with your father per my right above your post.

21

So... I got the 607 defense articles sent to me...

by i_drank_the_wine in

jw
friends

...by a family member who recalled that this is one of my major apostate beefs.

the articles themselves are disgusting pieces of mis-information and require some serious mental gymnastics to actually believe.

however, they're so damn long-winded and waste so much time on pointless stuff like the 2 pages on the jw's beliefs about the 70 year period, that i am debating on whether or not to write the loyal j-dub family member back on it or not.. it shows just how brainwashed that family member is in that they know that 607 is a problem date, yet happily forward the articles as soem sort of proof while never once reading anything on the topic with an iota of thinking.. after years of having everything i've said on these topics ignored by everyone in my family that i've tried contacting over and over again, i really feel like taking the time to pick through their trash is going to be a big waste.

Indian Larry

Keep it very simple with them. Most witnesses are so used to simply accepting the societies explanition of things that they have lost the ability to research and understand. If they do see something that does not seem right they assume they are the ones that are wrong. Even when faced with overwhelming evidence in the form of the thousands of business tablets, the astronomical data, the historical data and so on, if someone is "God's channel of communication" that trumps all opposing views. The once chance you have is to stick with very simple scriptures straight from the Bible. Many times even the most mind controlled Witness will still put the inspired word of God above the FDS.

With that in mind remind them that both the society and secular historians agree that Babylon fell in October of 539bc. Then have them read the following scripture:

(Jeremiah25:12) . . .“‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. . .

The king of Babylon is was dead in 539. Why does the society say the 70 years ended two years later? How could Jehovah "call into account" a nation that had already fallen and a king that was already dead?

Let them know that you feel you have to believe "the utterance of Jehovah" above anything that man says. After all "It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step". You might also remind them what the prophet Daniel was inspired to write in Daniel 5:26 regarding the death of Belshazzar and the fall of Babylon:

(Daniel5:26)26 “This is the interpretation of the word: ME′NE, God has numbered [the days of] your kingdom and has finished it.

The bible could not be any more clear about when the 70 years ended. The society insists that the 70 years ended two years later, with ZERO scriptural proof. They simply need to prop up 1914 because it is the basis for the authority they have assumed over the organization. If they want to keep the power they have over nearly seven million people the MUST keep 1914. Let them know that is why the "generation" keeps changing, who knows maybe you will plant a small seed of truth that will grow in the future.

PS. Ask them to do the following search on their CD: "when seventy years have been fulfilled"

Ask them why that has only been quoted in two articles over the past 60 years and why even those articles don't explain why they disagree with the word of Jehovah God in Jeremiah and Daniel.

21

So... I got the 607 defense articles sent to me...

by i_drank_the_wine in

jw
friends

...by a family member who recalled that this is one of my major apostate beefs.

the articles themselves are disgusting pieces of mis-information and require some serious mental gymnastics to actually believe.

however, they're so damn long-winded and waste so much time on pointless stuff like the 2 pages on the jw's beliefs about the 70 year period, that i am debating on whether or not to write the loyal j-dub family member back on it or not.. it shows just how brainwashed that family member is in that they know that 607 is a problem date, yet happily forward the articles as soem sort of proof while never once reading anything on the topic with an iota of thinking.. after years of having everything i've said on these topics ignored by everyone in my family that i've tried contacting over and over again, i really feel like taking the time to pick through their trash is going to be a big waste.

Indian Larry

23

For Newbies: EXCELLENT Judicial meeting with LOTS of info!!

by Lady Liberty in

thought i would bump to the top this excellent tape recording of a judicial meeting.

you will find the person "on trial" has bneen a elder himself.

once he realised things were not adding up he ended up disassociating himself along with his wife.

Indian Larry

Princess Cynic (love the name btw) it sounds like you have not yet read Crisis of Conscience by Ray Franz yet.

http://www.amazon.com/Crisis-Conscience-Raymond-Franz/dp/0914675230/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1321535495&sr=1-1

I is a "must read" for anyone questioning the org. In that book he tells how he got the letters ( he was a former governing body member) he also shows xeroxed copies of the letters. Many other people did not believe that as well as the rank and file is kept in the dark by the governing body. I would bet my life that it is true though. In effect I am.

In the early 80's there was a couple of elders (John May and Martin Merriman) from Ireland who (like your husband) could not believe some of this was true either. They flew 6000 miles at great expence to the US to personally look into all of this, they also asked to meet with the govering body. The body refused to meet with them even though they had flown from Ireland all the way to Brookland. They literally begged for help from the GB and were refused. It is shameful how they were treated. If you would like to hear the story it is a really good listen. After hearing this brother in Ireland speak for 5 min. there is no way you can doubt his sincerety.

He was (as most witnesses still are) naive, and thought the governing body actually cared about the truth. He was under the (mistaken) impression that what the bible says about how to treat our brothers, and other matters should be ultimate deciding factor in any decsion. He learned otherwise, that is for sure. If you would like to hear his story in his own words go to this page:

http://www.watchtowernews.org/media/mayrevised.mp3

If you would like to see a video from the viewpoint of his friend Martin Merriman that covers many of the same points it can be seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBa9HRSrnFk

Share these with your husband, but don't push him too hard. When I first started learning the "truth about the truth" it was overwhelming. It takes time to digest everything. I was so angry at the organization. I literally have turned in the direction of Bethel and flipped them the finger. I was so angry I tried to push out my wife and family. I almost lost everything. I have since managed a long fade, I still have an excellent relationship with all of my family, my wife and I am here to help guide my child in critical thinking skills. I am also still friends with everyone in the congregation, and they are friendly to me.

However I no longer attend the meetings, I do not go out in service, I skip assemblies. But I do not directly attack thier faith in the org. Rather I simply ask pointed questions from time to time to help them think for themselves. If I do push too hard and raise thier anger a little, I back off and save that battle for another day. Also from time to time (maybe 3-4 meetings a year) I do go to the hall, just to "throw them a bone" so to speak.

It has worked well for me. Once my elderly parents have passed I may move forward a little more and perhaps D/A myself but I do not see that as something to rush into. The more time that goes by my viewpoint changes. I am not so angry at the org anymore. I actually feel sorry for most of those in bethel.

For instance, I have no doubt that there is some brother up there assigned to monitor this site to try to track down dissenters on this site that they can take action against. That brother has GOT to be dealing with cognitive dissonence to a massive degree. He has to be miserable, but he is stuck. No education, no real world job experience, a tight job market. He (and others like him) are caught up not only in a moral dilemma, but also face the loss of their families, friends, and livelyhood. I feel sorry for him.

If you have not read Leon Fessingers book "When Prophecy Fails" it is a very interesting book. It is not about the Witnesses at all. It is about a group of people in the '50's that believed in UFO's. They had a "prophet" that told them when the world would end. When it did not happen as predicted, the way they responded was very interesting. For most of the group it took 3 failures before they started to see the truth. After the first failed prophecy they actually believed even more. The book is available here on Amazon. If you like to read I reccomend it. It is "safe" to order or have in your home as it does not discuss Witnesses directly at all.

http://www.amazon.com/When-Prophecy-Fails-Leon-Festinger/dp/1891396986/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1321535582&sr=8-1

23

For Newbies: EXCELLENT Judicial meeting with LOTS of info!!

by Lady Liberty in

thought i would bump to the top this excellent tape recording of a judicial meeting.

you will find the person "on trial" has bneen a elder himself.

once he realised things were not adding up he ended up disassociating himself along with his wife.

Indian Larry

I am a "newbie" and I would like to thank whoever posted this for putting "newbie" in the title. I just finished listening to the entire committee meeting. All I can say is WOW! Rick did a fantastic job of defending himself, especially when you consider all the research he had to do BEFORE there was the internet to make it all so easy. What a good job and his comments afterwards were so good as well. No name calling, no insults, just straight facts well presented. I truly believe that if we want to help family members out this is the best way to do it. I am a 3rd generation witness, and a few years ago I was "seven of nine" so to speak, but things have changed and I have managed a pretty good fade for the past several years. All my family is still "in", my wife is "in" and I have an young child that will be facing pressure soon to get baptised. I am going to try to get my wife to listen to this audio and see how that goes. I don't want to get DF'd because my parents are elderly and it would break their hearts. I also don't want to try to talk them "out" of the org because the cognitive dissonance is so hard on you mentally. It took me almost 10 years to get to the point I am now, I don't think they have that long left and I don't want to ruin what time they have by forcing them to choose between myself and the org.

Right now I just want to get my wife on the same page as I. Anyway that was a fantastic audio.

44

JWs Depression and Suicide

by 00DAD in

since jehovah's witnesses supposedly have "the truth" and are part of god's visible organization living in a "spiritual paradise" you would naturally expect that they should be the happiest people on earth!

this clearly is not the case.

wha happened?

Indian Larry

Over the years I know of several suicides:

1 hanging (he was DF'd)

2 with guns

1 cut wrist

1 attempted (Pill O/D)

Thinking it over I would say without any exaggeration that probably 50% or more of my friends in the org are on some type of anti-depressent, and that is a very conservative estimate. I myself have fought with depression for most of my adult life. Looking back at it now with a fresh viewpoint I can see how mentally unhealthy it was to grow up as a Witness in the 1960's. Constant fear of armageddon, knowing all your friends from school will be "birdfeed", worrying that you are not doing enough, you are not worthy of God's kindess.

My wife is even on anti-depressents now and she has always been one of the most joyful person you would ever meet. She feels like she is not "doing enough" in service etc. She is also worried about me, she knows how I feel about the GB, both of us are worried that I will get DF'd. I have been on a fade for 3 yrs. and as long as I keep my mouth shut I should be okay. I am a 3rd generation Witness, a former ministerial servant, and all my family is in the org as is my wifes.

Reading C of C and In Search of Christian Freedom helped me a lot but it will still be a while before I have all of the indoctrination out of me. I do still believe in God and Christ, I don't believe in any specific religion and I don't know that it even matters what any of us believes as far as Christology etc. Jesus will read our hearts when the time comes, and the time will come when it does, I am not interested in trying to figure that out ahead of time either.

Anyway, long story short, yes I do believe that being a witness does raise the odds that you will face some form of serious depression at some point in your life.

39

Our dog Princess was put to sleep today :(

by factfinder in

jw
friends

i miss her very much.

:(.

Indian Larry

This is my first post. I have been lurking on this boiard for awhile, but I finally broke down and joined so I could post to you about the loss of Princess. I too recently lost my dog, he was not “just a dog” anymore that you could say “just a wife” or “just a child”, he was a family member. I don't know you but I do want you to know that I feel for you. Here is one of my favorite quotes about dogs, I hope you like it: "Dogs are our link to paradise. They don't know evil or jealousy or discontent. To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden, where doing nothing was not boring--it was peace." - Milan Kundera